catpad: (Default)
catpad ([personal profile] catpad) wrote2014-07-31 04:21 pm

"Why Don’t I Criticize Israel ?"

Вот самая лучшая статья, которую я когда-либо читал по поводу израильской ситуации.

Если лень читать, можете послушать:



Если лень слушать, прочитайте хотя бы отрывки, в которых я выделил то, что мне кажется самым главным.

Статья эта хороша тем, что она совершенно не-произраильская, почти даже наоборот. Именно поэтому ею можно тыкать в нос практически любому без того, чтобы тут же был навешен ярлык "пропаганды".
Но главное, что текст этот только следует простой логике и ясно показывает, почему каждый нормальный человек должен быть на стороне Израиля (не только сейчас, но и вообще).

Первые несколько абзацев, конечно же, отвратят любого чересчур религиозно настроенного читателя, потому что статья эта антирелигиозная. Но так как суть здесь совсем не в этом, то мы их пропустим.



...there is no way to look at the images coming out Gaza—especially of infants and toddlers riddled by shrapnel—and think that this is anything other than a monstrous evil. Insofar as the Israelis are the agents of this evil, it seems impossible to support them. And there is no question that the Palestinians have suffered terribly for decades under the occupation. This is where most critics of Israel appear to be stuck. They see these images, and they blame Israel for killing and maiming babies. They see the occupation, and they blame Israel for making Gaza a prison camp. I would argue that this is a kind of moral illusion, borne of a failure to look at the actual causes of this conflict, as well as of a failure to understand the intentions of the people on either side of it.

The truth is that there is an obvious, undeniable, and hugely consequential moral difference between Israel and her enemies. The Israelis are surrounded by people who have explicitly genocidal intentions towards them.

The discourse in the Muslim world about Jews is utterly shocking. Not only is there Holocaust denial—there’s Holocaust denial that then asserts that we will do it for real if given the chance. The only thing more obnoxious than denying the Holocaust is to say that it should have happened; it didn’t happen, but if we get the chance, we will accomplish it.

And this gets to the heart of the moral difference between Israel and her enemies...To see this moral difference, you have to ask what each side would do if they had the power to do it.

What would the Jews do to the Palestinians if they could do anything they wanted? Well, we know the answer to that question, because they can do more or less anything they want. The Israeli army could kill everyone in Gaza tomorrow. So what does that mean? Well, it means that, when they drop a bomb on a beach and kill four Palestinian children, as happened last week, this is almost certainly an accident.

Now, is it possible that some Israeli soldiers go berserk under pressure and wind up shooting into crowds of rock-throwing children? Of course. You will always find some soldiers acting this way in the middle of a war. But we know that this isn’t the general intent of Israel. We know the Israelis do not want to kill non-combatants, because they could kill as many as they want, and they’re not doing it.

(Это и есть главный, чисто логический аргумент против ублюдков с их "геноцидом и этнической чисткой": because they could kill as many as they want, and they’re not doing it.)

What do we know of the Palestinians? What would the Palestinians do to the Jews in Israel if the power imbalance were reversed? Well, they have told us what they would do. For some reason, Israel’s critics just don’t want to believe the worst about a group like Hamas, even when it declares the worst of itself. We’ve already had a Holocaust and several other genocides in the 20th century. People are capable of committing genocide. When they tell us they intend to commit genocide, we should listen. There is every reason to believe that the Palestinians would kill all the Jews in Israel if they could. Would every Palestinian support genocide? Of course not. But vast numbers of them—and of Muslims throughout the world—would. Needless to say, the Palestinians in general, not just Hamas, have a history of targeting innocent noncombatants in the most shocking ways possible. They’ve blown themselves up on buses and in restaurants. They’ve massacred teenagers. They’ve murdered Olympic athletes. They now shoot rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas. And again, the charter of their government in Gaza explicitly tells us that they want to annihilate the Jews — not just in Israel but everywhere.
...
Consider the moral difference between using human shields and being deterred by them. That is the difference we’re talking about. The Israelis and other Western powers are deterred, however imperfectly, by the Muslim use of human shields in these conflicts, as we should be. It is morally abhorrent to kill noncombatants if you can avoid it. It’s certainly abhorrent to shoot through the bodies of children to get at your adversary. But take a moment to reflect on how contemptible this behavior is. And understand how cynical it is. The Muslims are acting on the assumption — the knowledge, in fact — that the infidels with whom they fight, the very people whom their religion does nothing but vilify, will be deterred by their use of Muslim human shields. They consider the Jews the spawn of apes and pigs — and yet they rely on the fact that they don’t want to kill Muslim noncombatants.

Now imagine reversing the roles here. Imagine how fatuous — indeed comical it would be — for the Israelis to attempt to use human shields to deter the Palestinians... Imagine the Israelis holding up their own women and children as human shields. Of course, that would be ridiculous. The Palestinians are trying to kill everyone. Killing women and children is part of the plan. Reversing the roles here produces a grotesque Monty Python skit.

If you’re going to talk about the conflict in the Middle East, you have to acknowledge this difference. I don’t think there’s any ethical disparity to be found anywhere that is more shocking or consequential than this.
...
So, it seems to me, that you have to side with Israel here. You have one side which if it really could accomplish its aims would simply live peacefully with its neighbors, and you have another side which is seeking to implement a seventh century theocracy in the Holy Land. There’s no peace to be found between those incompatible ideas.
...
These incompatible religious attachments to this land have made it impossible for Muslims and Jews to negotiate like rational human beings, and they have made it impossible for them to live in peace. But the onus is still more on the side of the Muslims here. Even on their worst day, the Israelis act with greater care and compassion and self-criticism than Muslim combatants have anywhere, ever.

And again, you have to ask yourself, what do these groups want? What would they accomplish if they could accomplish anything? What would the Israelis do if they could do what they want? They would live in peace with their neighbors, if they had neighbors who would live in peace with them. They would simply continue to build out their high tech sector and thrive.

What do groups like ISIS and al-Qaeda and even Hamas want? They want to impose their religious views on the rest of humanity. They want stifle every freedom that decent, educated, secular people care about. This is not a trivial difference. And yet judging from the level of condemnation that Israel now receives, you would think the difference ran the other way.



This kind of confusion puts all of us in danger. This is the great story of our time. For the rest of our lives, and the lives of our children, we are going to be confronted by people who don’t want to live peacefully in a secular, pluralistic world, because they are desperate to get to Paradise, and they are willing to destroy the very possibility of human happiness along the way.
The truth is, we are all living in Israel. It’s just that some of us haven’t realized it yet.

Последнее утверждение настолько верно, важно и необходимо выбить на лбу каждому "полезному идиоту", что я просто не мог не выделить его красным цветом.

[identity profile] trurle.livejournal.com 2014-07-31 07:37 am (UTC)(link)
Текст отказывает евреям в национальном самоопределении и тем самым Израилю в легитимности, так что с такими союзниками никаких врагов не надо.
дискуссия на тему (http://grihanm.livejournal.com/437970.html?thread=6190034#t6190034)

[identity profile] catpad.livejournal.com 2014-07-31 07:46 am (UTC)(link)
А вы читайте внимательней. Он не верит в национальное самоопределение на религиозной основе, но никак не отказывает вообще в самоопределении:
So, if there were going to be a state organized around protecting members of a single religion, it certainly should be a Jewish state.

Автор вообще, судя по сайту, воинствующий атеист, так что это всё понятно. Но дело-то совсем не в этом.

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THANKS

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[identity profile] ztatyan.livejournal.com 2014-08-31 02:21 pm (UTC)(link)
Это правда, что они нацелились на весь запад и мы у них первый этап. Но убедить в этом никого нальзя. Одна из причин в том, что до второго этапа (и даже до первого иногда) дело большей частью не доходит - они начинают рубиться друг с другом, Хизболла против Эль Каиды. В этом, в сущности, наша надежда - что поэтому же убеждать и не понадобится, что друг друга жрать им еще долго.

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